Hannah Joy Graves: The Cult Mother

Megan Hamilton (00:02.602)
I'm Megan Hamilton and this is the Embracing Enchantment podcast. I'm getting, I'm starting to weird out. I am so excited about today's episode and we have a very special guest. I came to know her from a friend who wrote quote, you're going to fucking love this. She's built a massive, some may say cult following on Instagram and her readings are honest. They incorporate what's happening in the world.

but they're also quite loving and uplifting. She's known as the enfant terrible of esoterica. mother Hannah Joy Graves is here today. Welcome Hannah.

Hannah (00:43.967)
Wow, Megan, thank you. Quite the introduction.

Megan Hamilton (00:46.414)
I'm a big fan. I said this in a previous episode, you know, I really, really love when you show up in my feed and I get your take on the card. But even one of my favorite things is that you're often introducing me to things and I've been reading Tarot for a long time now, as I suspect you have.

Hannah (01:12.075)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (01:13.794)
But you know, you were talking, you pulled the magician once, I think it was like a month or two ago and we're talking about the belt being a snake and like or a worse. And was like, I have in all the years I just haven't noticed that. And it's one of my favorite things about tarot. Do you find yourself still learning new things?

Hannah (01:26.123)
Mm.

Hannah (01:33.305)
all the time. I think the thing that really keeps me interested in tarot because actually I like a lot of short-term interest and stimulation and then I'm very keen to move on to the next thing like the amount of times I've said I'm gonna learn the guitar and if I pick it up and I can't be amazingly instantly good at it I'm gonna put it to one side but with tarot it's because of the fact you can never really I don't think you can ever really be a master

Megan Hamilton (01:35.447)
It's the best.

Hannah (02:00.203)
because the deck is continually revealing new information, new symbolism, new ways of seeing all the time. So it's one of my favorite things, especially if I'm reading tarot for other people and they'll be like, wait, what's that in this one card? And you're like, my God, I've never even seen that before. You know, it is crazy the way that that can keep happening. So I love that as well.

Megan Hamilton (02:18.263)
I know.

Megan Hamilton (02:22.658)
Me too. Do you have ADHD?

Hannah (02:24.748)
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Undiagnosed, here's the thing, I had a very, very good GP that was like, girl, I think what we might be dealing with here is the old ADHD. And I very, very reluctantly went for an assessment with a psychiatrist who sat there and then just kind of back in his chair and went, I just kind of feel.

like maybe you don't and I was like I was kind of looking like for more of a diagnostic framework than a feeling at this point so I kind of I got frustrated with the whole process again but is it something that I can relate to and see myself in every single day the struggle is real yes absolutely

Megan Hamilton (02:52.375)
my god.

Megan Hamilton (03:10.427)
yes, I, I had a similar experience, although I did end up with the diagnosis, but the diagnosis was

So she sent me away with the prescription. said, okay, but wait, do I have it? And she said, I've written down, I've written down unspecified, but likely ADHD. And I'm like, fuck, okay, just give me the drugs and let's go from here.

Hannah (03:24.686)
Hmm.

Hannah (03:35.432)
Well yeah, this guy said to me, he was like, we should talk about doing an autism assessment. I was like, okay, no, I'm done here. Okay, like.

Megan Hamilton (03:41.408)
You

Megan Hamilton (03:45.614)
it's so. No, spicy. Yeah. And that's and that is where these like little things, as you were saying, you know, with tarot, because there's always something in there that you're going to learn. Even a new take on the card can sometimes, you know, sometimes you catch somebody else's take on something and you go,

Hannah (03:46.862)
So, Neuro Spicy somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah (03:57.453)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (04:08.334)
And then that starts to open up a new door for how you're reading a particular card or even, you know, a different angle on one of the suits. And that that tends to keep me interested as well. OK, so I speaking of I'm going to pull a card for us and then I asked Hannah beforehand if she'd be open to this and she is so I'm going to do like a quick interpretation and we'll sort of come up with some themes that we might consider for the episode and then.

Hannah (04:24.121)
love it.

Megan Hamilton (04:37.23)
We're going to also let Hannah give her interpretation. Okay. So what are we going to pull today?

Megan Hamilton (04:54.156)
Ace of Pentacles reverse. you read reversals? You don't. Okay.

Hannah (04:55.377)
I don't. I don't. No. So I can go off on my big as to why I don't but I think the most important thing to say about reversals is it's always personal choice. It's card pullers choice. I have a lot of respect for a lot of people who do read reversals and it's obviously a completely legitimate way of reading a card in that orientation.

Megan Hamilton (05:18.326)
I will absolutely enjoy talking to you about this because I didn't read reversals at the beginning, then I started to, and then I, know, do you know Liz Worth? Do you follow her?

Hannah (05:22.018)
Yeah.

Hannah (05:33.302)
Mm-hmm, not not personally, but yeah

Megan Hamilton (05:36.266)
Okay, so I took one of her workshops and she talked about why she doesn't read reversals and I thought, okay, well, I'm just going to see what happens if I don't read them. And I did it for a few months and then I just found myself missing it. And so I came back to it. But yeah, absolutely. mean, you know, everybody that that's what I love about tarot is you can really just make it your own. So I'll read the reversal of Ace of Pentacles and you can you will read the upright.

Hannah (05:48.454)
Yeah.

Hannah (05:56.443)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Love it.

Love it.

Megan Hamilton (06:04.758)
Okay, so ace of pentacles, know, lately I've been leaning into pentacles being in the realm of behavior as well as more tangible sort of earthly things, because we put pentacles to, right? We usually put pentacles to career and money, and that's a really easy and legit way of looking at it. But there you can also start to look at like lots of more little tendrils of understanding.

Hannah (06:16.729)
Yessss

Megan Hamilton (06:33.014)
And aces are sort of beginnings, there's also they're also like beginnings with divine intervention. And so sometimes I think of them as though there's this waiting period after. Something has sort of come to a close and then it might open up space for, you know, the Monty Python hand to come in and say, here you go, here's a leg up on this next journey. And any anytime you've ever experienced.

a new passion or something that gives you an excitement. There's almost like the strange if you've read the Alchemist, have you read the Alchemist? No, okay, you might really love it. But there's this like, it's almost like the universe conspires to like to push you in this direction. And so a lot of great things might happen as you're starting this new journey to get you set up and it might feel like it's good luck, but really like you're going on this new sort of divinely led path.

Hannah (07:08.966)
No.

Megan Hamilton (07:28.972)
And I love as well the little moon gate in the background because it's got the mountain. And then we just think of this as like the beginning of the journey. Whenever I see mountains, I think of journeys. So if it's reversed, we might think that we're starting a new direction away from old, let's say, habits and behaviors that we have been wanting to

Hannah (07:40.659)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (07:59.598)
And I would say also at this point in time, that might be not a terrible thing to do as we are getting ready for what might be a really big period of fighting even harder for what's right, leaning into your values.

Where have you been holding yourself back? Where have old patterns been stopping you from, you know, being the voice that is standing up and sticking out for other people? Where has that felt difficult for you? And how can you start a new direction, releasing some of that old stuff and whatever it is, and you can do shadow work to figure it out. But how can you begin a new starting within like getting, you know,

very familiar with yourself. How can you begin a new direction towards feeling like your behavior and how you are reacting and responding to the world is aligned with a how you want to show up at be what you believe in.

Hannah (09:09.631)
Gorgeous.

Megan Hamilton (09:10.498)
Alright Hannah, what have you got for us?

Hannah (09:13.086)
i i love an ace. i always say it's all to play for with an ace on the table. for me they're kind of the reset buttons in the deck. they always have a very refreshing kind of rejuvenating energy to them. and as you said those kind of those magic hands. that idea that this is an offering. that we can practice discernment here too. that it you know is this something that we might be prepared to get a hold of, to turn around, remembering those coins. do you have those two sides?

Megan Hamilton (09:15.362)
Me too.

Hannah (09:40.126)
yes the realm of work and finance but also purpose abundance. where we go where we don't. who we spend time with, who we don't. that idea of whatever it is that kind of adds or takes in terms of energy or value. i actually with the mountains in the background i love the fact with that imagery in the Rider Waite Smith illustration that absolutely this can be little invitation out of our comfort zones that kind of takes us on the adventure but also with the mountains being symbolic of air

reminding us of the suit of the conscious awareness, our swords. The idea that this earthy garden, this pentacles energy, takes us out of the place of simply thinking about it and encourages us to actually roll our sleeves up and get stuck in, in terms of thinking about, like I said, what we want to plant, what we want to cultivate, the kind of change, the value that we want to see. So I always love reading just the Ace of Pentacles as a little golden opportunity. But of course, as with all of our cards, it's what we do with it.

Megan Hamilton (10:08.344)
Huh?

Hannah (10:36.852)
that really counts in that card for me.

Megan Hamilton (10:38.178)
Mm-hmm. Right. There has to be an action plan that comes from, do you know, I had a reading with Sarah Faith Gaudestine earlier this year. And after we were done, she said, okay, so, and I've borrowed this as well going forward. She said, so everything that happened here is messages, right? There's actions, there's things to do. And if you choose not to do them,

Hannah (10:42.538)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (10:49.513)
Amazing.

Megan Hamilton (11:05.048)
then nothing will happen. And it's like this reading didn't exist. So you have to go out and take action for all of this to unfold. Otherwise it's done. And I'm like, yes, that's the piece. There's like, cause we love to sink into the possibilities. We love to sort of like, you know, live, laugh, love, fuck it, manifest our way into whatever, but it doesn't work that way.

Hannah (11:16.865)
Yeah.

Hannah (11:31.681)
No.

Megan Hamilton (11:31.746)
There has to be action. And this is just part of the sort of, you know, manifestation plan. If that word floats your boat in order to move forward. And you know what's really funny to me too, is that like there's a very similar vibe to what each of us were saying. It just was, you know, coming from a different place. And the reason I bring that up is because one was a reversal and one was not.

And then I think that's a great opportunity to ask you, let's talk about why you don't like to read reversals.

Hannah (12:06.429)
so like again, cause it's always one of those tricky topics that can divide the team amongst horror readers, you know, it's absolutely personal choice. Unlike yourself, you know, like I've, I've had, I've read reversals, I've kind of introduced it, I've practiced it and then put it to the side again. And I think the main reason for me is because my work has already always been very focused on kind of working with other people. And I think obviously the more traditional way that we look at reversals is the idea that the upright orientation

the illustration is somehow positive whereas the inverted or reversed is more the negative and i think moving out of duality in our perception is actually part a huge part of the work that we do with tarot so i think when you're reading for other people you run the risk of them going it's upside down it's upside down that's bad

Right? And obviously we know with reversals it can be, well this could be recent, this could be historic, this could be you, it could be someone else, you know there's a lot of ways that we can work reversals. But for me I found that's, you know, it's counter-intuitive. I like to say that I like to consider the full spectrum of information regardless of orientation. And it is also harder to intuit meaning from artwork that is upside down. So in the way that I read for people predominantly over Zoom,

Megan Hamilton (12:57.858)
Yeah, yeah.

Hannah (13:27.308)
I'm always showing them the individual card, talking about the individual card relevant to placement and just the act of that being upside down and them having to kind of... wait, what am I looking at? Like adjust themselves. If they're not really familiar with the deck, I think it's definitely an aspect of the practice that, you know, in the way that I teach tarot, I encourage people who are new to move with awareness of reversals to perhaps not worry about it too much initially.

But to practice it, to do a little reading around it and just to see what works for them because it's such a, like I said, always say it's like the Toth tarot deck, right? It's one of those, that is Aleister Crowley, the Freda Harris like Toth tarot deck. People either love it or they don't. It's just a vibes thing and it's the same for me with reversals. I remember doing classes with Jessica Dore when I was new to reading tarot and as soon as I heard Jessica Dore say that

know she didn't read reversals i was sat there smiling like a cheshire cat because i loved having that kind of reinforcement from someone that i respected so much but at this point very much it's just well do whatever you want do whatever you like do i haven't got like a militant stance on one way being better or right or correct it's just for me personally it's not something that i've ever really worked into my practice because i just don't really like it or enjoy it

Megan Hamilton (14:33.304)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (14:52.244)
I I love that. And that is the that is part of I think why I started, especially in the last 10 years, I'd say really diving into alternative ways of exploring spirituality because there's, you know, especially within esoteric worlds, there's just so much room for making it your own that there isn't an organized religion and

Hannah (14:53.083)
you

Hannah (15:07.354)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (15:21.366)
I mean, like there's lots more to those two conversations than that, obviously. But it's the same with what I love about witches. just like, yeah, dude, whatever you like, that's OK. Go for it. Like whatever works for you. And it can be so personal and personalized without, you know, and not everybody, obviously, but without like shame or like, well, you're doing it wrong. It's like there's no fucking wrong. It's how does it work for you?

Hannah (15:32.294)
Hmm. Yeah.

Hannah (15:45.453)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (15:49.184)
What's it going to do for you? Is it making your life better? Great. Go with it.

Hannah (15:52.943)
Exactly right. I always think it's one of these cases of, you know, yes, we learn and we study and there is a respect and an understanding for why it is we've arrived at the point that we have in certain practices today. But unless we are working to kind of create the movement or the flexibility within those practices relevant to kind of the lives that we're living today, well, then they will become dusty and archaic and feel irrelevant to kind of the challenges that we that we face in the day to day. And that for me was really

a lot of what cult mother set out to do it was the fact that I didn't necessarily I found that a spiritual solution was something I was going to need personally but I found that a lot of the spaces where I was sent to find that weren't exactly didn't exactly feel like a fit for me you know like we like the people who've turned yoga into a blood sport you know it's like there's just there's just a lot of

Megan Hamilton (16:50.262)
Uh-huh.

Hannah (16:52.402)
wafty woo woo white woman spirituality that grinds my gears now more than ever having been working in what is a massive industry for the last half a decade. So I think for me with my approach to Taro was always well this is the way that I have been introduced to it, the way that I work with it and what I have found beneficial. If I can pass that to you

and it have the same impact or the same effect amazing but i mean like i said even in the way i teach i'm like i do not get to have the final word no one gets to have the final word because no one is the the we have no one fixed point of origin or authority in terms of tarot and tarot practice which is what i find makes it quite kind of anarchic and punk rock right you get some people weighing in obviously there was a lot of those dusty old occultists publishing

Megan Hamilton (17:32.75)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah (17:45.437)
a lot of books and i've worked a lot with kind of you know paul foster case people like this where you're just like okay yeah this is great but also take what you want leave the rest what it what it is that maybe resonated and landed with people back in the 1930s maybe isn't going to feel like it lands and resonates with people now and i think that idea of it feeling relevant and feeling personal and people feeling like they can connect and relate for me is the magic in tarot you know it isn't about sitting down and

Megan Hamilton (18:12.302)
Absolutely.

Hannah (18:13.694)
focusing on what it is you can tell someone, I always say a good reading might kind of raise more questions than it answers, you know, as well. So yeah.

Megan Hamilton (18:25.582)
Mm hmm. Yes, absolutely. I love the flexibility of it. I love that you can grow with it. I love that you and I could pull the exact same spread and have a completely different reading or, you know, understanding of it. and I love that, you know, when I'm reading for people, I like to give them a couple of different options and say, okay, well, which one feels like it's the right, you know, fit for this particular moment.

Hannah (18:31.086)
Mmm. Mmm.

Hannah (18:40.084)
Yeah.

Hannah (18:52.371)
Yeah, good. Yeah, I love that.

Megan Hamilton (18:55.15)
Or sometimes I'll just start talking and I just say, you know, like if this isn't, if what I'm saying to you is not resonating, then let me know and we'll go back and we'll take a look and we'll find what's supposed to be teased out here. And that I think because everybody has a different style of reading, right? You will meet people who are just, this is how it is. This is what we're going to talk about. These are the themes. This is what you're supposed to take away. And, you know,

Hannah (19:14.58)
Yes.

Megan Hamilton (19:24.63)
And that and that's fine. If you're looking for that, if you're looking for that kind of direction, then then that's the kind of reader you're to want to have. I love you talked about Jessica Dore. I love the intersection, as you said, between, know, the punk rock element of like, it's like, you know, I always think of the devil as the goth lover's card, right? It's like, you know, what what's the like? That's that's the angle I want to take here. That's the sort of

Hannah (19:47.166)
Yes, I love that.

Megan Hamilton (19:53.866)
That's where I feel inclined to walk down that path. Not like I want to fucking invite, you know, that into my life necessarily. But I also don't I don't actually believe in like like evil magic or evil spirits. Like I actually for the most part think that anything beyond where we're at is fighting for us to be good to each other. Right. It's like aiming for.

Hannah (20:18.549)
Hmm. Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (20:21.17)
in betterment, like even a reading where the cards are calling you out big time, which they do. And you're just like, okay, fine. But it's all loving and generous, right? It's not like you better do it this way or bad things are going to happen to you. And as you and I talked about earlier, there's, there's a lot of rhetoric around bringing evil into your house. If you have a tarot deck around, you know, inviting

Hannah (20:27.945)
yeah.

Hannah (20:50.121)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (20:51.064)
bad luck around.

Hannah (20:53.805)
This is definitely, this is an emerging kind of sub scene or subculture almost in America, I think, isn't it? This kind of like trad family, very Christian kind of, I've seen like little bits and pieces of it online. Obviously I follow, I follow Brie Luna, like all credit to Brie, obviously the hood witch for being really the OG internet witch.

Megan Hamilton (21:02.806)
I can't even.

Megan Hamilton (21:10.19)
It's not my

Megan Hamilton (21:16.878)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (21:17.268)
know, Bree ran so a lot of us can walk and I keep an eye out. Bree's always very much got her finger on the pulse in terms of like, what is going on with this? Like, I am calling it now. It's gonna get real weird over here in this fear. And I think it was Kat Von D, is it Kat Von D who's given up? You know, a lot of the hallmarks that we knew her for and has turned to Jesus. Which again, know, whatever people need, whatever makes them feel.

Megan Hamilton (21:42.474)
Interesting.

Hannah (21:43.652)
feel most alive but yeah the idea of know the tarot being the devil's uno isn't isn't new but it's actually part of what i like about it you know and and as you said you know that the devil card this is the thing with the tarot i always say it's like a really good episode of the simpsons what was amazing with the simpsons is certain people could experience it as just a just a cartoon right it's just a it's just a little bit of distraction whereas if you really sit with it if you really

Megan Hamilton (22:07.699)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (22:13.005)
of spend some time with it you realize that it's actually very layered, that there's actually a lot of commentary, that actually the characters and the writing are incredibly clever. And it's similar with with Taro. And you can approach the cards and you can access them at a entry level and have kind of like the start of an understanding of the energy of that card.

Megan Hamilton (22:16.76)
Hmm.

Hannah (22:37.903)
But the more you come back to it, the more you connect with it, the more you build a relationship with it, the more that that can shift and it can change over time. And I always say, you know, when people talk about how do you memorize 78 card meanings, well, don't, don't, right? Because card meanings are mutable. They have to be able to move and to change in order to alert you to the energy, the moment.

Megan Hamilton (22:49.782)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hannah (23:02.178)
in terms of where you're sat in the present. So yes, we study and we understand classical meaning and interpretation and how that's expressed in the illustration. But I think that the toughest thing with reading or practicing tarot, especially after time, is actually being able to move all of that understanding to the side to read the card relevant to the present moment or the person that you're giving the reading to. And with the devil, the devil is one of my favorite cards. It's at that point in the major arcana

Megan Hamilton (23:28.567)
I know, I love it.

Hannah (23:31.515)
where we're really coming to terms with the fact that we're human. In the Rider Waite Smith, the High Priestess sits on the whole of the cube. And yes, the numerical expression of that is significant, in occultism, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And in the devil, we see half a cube. And the humans are chained to half a cube, because we are chained to half the awareness. We can't sit in the energy of the High Priestess. That's the divine feminine.

Megan Hamilton (23:35.118)
Mmm.

Hannah (23:55.771)
That's not for us. That's not who we are. doesn't matter how many yoga classes you go to, right? So it's that idea of like we're always gonna have flaws. We're always gonna have detachments or unhealthy coping mechanisms. What the devil asks us to do is to be honest with ourselves about that. And despite the restriction, the discipline that that big Capricorn Saturn energy brings into play as well is to move with as much peace, ease and self-compassion as we can. And I always say to people, we don't, the tower doesn't come down because we escape the devil.

the tower collapses when we embrace the devil. You know, I love it, the goth lovers. Those illustrations in that deck reminding us there is no light without shadow. You can't walk one path. You have to know both. So in terms of kind of spiritual awareness or spiritual development, if you're tangoing with the devil, if you're down in that hole regularly, then you're doing the damn thing. That's exactly where you wanna be. One of my favorite cards.

Megan Hamilton (24:48.63)
Yeah. Same, same. Yeah. And that that to me is so much of, know, if you could think if if you were to say to me like, what is one of the major themes in general of tarot? It's just the both and right, which is the practice of magic in general. Like, how can you hold two seemingly opposite things to both be true at the same time? That's where everything sort of opens up and you go, I

I can look at things quite differently now. There's like a whole other take. And, you know, furthering to what you were talking about with the devil and I love, love, love, love that it forces us to take a look at the fact that we are human is I love that it also asks us what makes us feel guilty and do we actually need to feel guilty about it? Because so much of and and

Hannah (25:39.816)
Mmm.

rate.

Megan Hamilton (25:46.847)
want to get to this next as well, you know, when we're reading the cards that came out in 1909, the world was quite a different place. And even though, you know, these folks were in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and were practicing all kinds of different modes of spirituality, like my understanding is that Pamela Coleman Smith was still quite Catholic and really like and you can tell there's a lot of symbolism in the cards that that bring that up.

Hannah (25:52.69)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (26:15.596)
And I've always thought like, OK, well, what's what what is the difference? We're going to believe we're going to have a bunch of people in costumes and like pulling incense, smoking out the church, like intoning and singing and having these practices that are private summer for everybody. Some are not going to be blessed. We're going to convene with spirits. OK, so that version and like, you know, I'm not telling you anything new, but like that version is cool. But like that version is the bad version.

like that we're not allowed to do that over here. It's like, wait a minute, huh? And so I love that there's a lot of the sort of older symbolism inherent in the cards because it does remind you that you can. mean, I know, you know, people who follow a specific organized religion who also really love to read tarot cards and they they think that God is speaking through the cards to them. Great.

Hannah (27:10.697)
Hmm.

Hannah (27:14.355)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (27:15.158)
that's allowed too. But we do look at the cards from the angle of this is 1909. These are white faces. This is a very, you know, this was taken from a game as far as we know, that was only available to wealthy families who could afford to have these painted cards that they could play with, right? So that's like, you know, where it comes from.

Hannah (27:24.807)
Yep. Yep.

Megan Hamilton (27:44.046)
But then how do we take that and sort of translate it into the modern view of things or even our own particular views of things? maybe you agree with me that I think that 78 Degrees of Wisdom, which is Rachel Pollock's book. Do you know that book? Have you heard of it before? I feel like that sort of.

Hannah (28:04.67)
I do, yeah. I have heard of that one. I'd say that one's in what I call like the kind of canon, the Tarot literary canon. And obviously Jessica Dawes, Tarot for Change lives there right beside that right now as well.

Megan Hamilton (28:16.706)
It's.

Megan Hamilton (28:22.338)
Mm hmm. They are legit beside each other on my bookshelf here as well. I know. But I feel like that Rachel Pollock really allowed us to look at cards in an absolutely different way than they had been. I feel like up until that point, for the most part, and I'm sure there was other readers who were doing different things, but there was quite a strict rigidity to

Hannah (28:27.606)
Same.

Megan Hamilton (28:49.698)
You know, like the literal earlier versions of what the cards meant, which is this is Arthur Waite's book, which is where he talks about the cards. I cannot. I read this. I don't like it at all.

Hannah (28:59.945)
No, that's, well that's Waite himself. Well that's the thing is because it's it's it's a veil. Waite doesn't ever actually write that extensively, even on his own deck. If he does, he focuses on the Major Arcana in terms of meaning or interpretation. And he's one of these occultists who was always like, well, this is probably what you'll see and this is what I'll tell you it means, but it doesn't mean.

Megan Hamilton (29:24.622)
It's a secret meaning that I'm not going to tell you about yet.

Hannah (29:25.656)
But that doesn't really give you anything else. Yeah, exactly. He always, you know, as some of you, like you said, met a quarter of the golden dawn, the key with these societies is they were secret. They had rights, practices, initiations, you know. And so one thing that he was very good slash bad at was always saying, well, absolutely, you're going to look at the judgment card and see judgment. But of course you would do that. But that's not really what it means. But then doesn't ever really give you a lot else.

to work with, you know? So as far as weights, people are like, I'm gonna read this. I'm like, don't bother because he's just, he's a tease. He's a terrible tease. You know, and there was obviously hot debate in those circles at the time of the need to preserve and protect the secrecy while they obviously, they also wanted to share and capitalize, I'm sure, off of people's interest in what was happening behind the closed doors of their orders and temples, you know? So.

Megan Hamilton (30:12.622)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (30:19.071)
the thing for me with the Rider Waite Smith, and I've said this for a long time and I'll die on this cross, is it's Pamela Coleman Smith's It's Pixie Coleman Smith's deck. I think it's absolutely just, you know, with the similar with the Toth deck. It's one of these cases where he went, okay, I am the occultist, so we're gonna do these cards, and obviously here is all of your Jewish mysticism and Christian mysticism, and here's the influence that I'm bringing with me from Freemasonry, etc, etc.

Megan Hamilton (30:26.306)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah (30:46.942)
then you can really see the artist in the cards and I think when you look at the astrological connections of the minor arcana and the way that the decans are expressed this is really something that I only came to years and years into my practice he's never ever been seen to give any we're not sure of what instruction there was what meetings they had you know we don't have all of his written instructions Pamela Coleman-Smith

Megan Hamilton (30:56.75)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (31:15.108)
But I think she was able to, because she was an initiator of the order and was a practicing occultist, I think that she was able to take a lot of the cards, especially in the minor, I said, and really run with them. And there is a movement and an energy and a mutability, I think, in the designs of the Rider Waite that has to just be credited to Pixie Collins-Smith's talent.

as an illustrator and someone who obviously also had a huge amount of awareness in terms of the historical connections and connotations for the cards as well.

Megan Hamilton (31:48.406)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Hannah (31:52.399)
And I mean, because some people will say that like, the solar busker was on display in the British Museum. You can see the influence of some of the solar busker illustrations in the Rider Waite Smith, but are they used in the same way and in the same places? No. Is it maybe a deliberate and subtle nod to the fact that there is a great history in the development of these illustrations? Probably, yeah, I think she was very clever. I wouldn't underestimate, I wouldn't underestimate her. And obviously my forever fantasy dinner table guest.

Megan Hamilton (31:52.44)
Check. Agree.

Megan Hamilton (31:58.52)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (32:06.317)
No.

Hannah (32:21.049)
would be pixie colman smith absolutely megan yes no honey whenever you're rolling with me you're seated at the damn table we're not having any of that no we're not having any of that

Megan Hamilton (32:22.638)
Okay, can I come please? be I will serve the dinner. I'll stand it. I'll be in the background, but I would like to be at that dinner. love her.

Megan Hamilton (32:35.48)
hop on a plane to Ireland, let's, let's conjure her up. Okay, so, so with that, have you worked or studied under anyone? Because, you know, you brought up Jessica door who I would, I would even I might even credit her for

Hannah (32:45.168)
Mmm.

Hannah (32:51.594)
for change.

Megan Hamilton (32:51.638)
You know, she was she was up there a little bit in the way she was talking about the cards as you know, her history, in case you don't know, if you're listening, is that she comes from editing self-help books. She has a master's in social work. And I think she might actually be a licensed psychotherapist as well. Actually, I think she is because I think she's doing that now. And she was talking about the cards in a way that I was like,

Hannah (33:14.064)
Mm.

Megan Hamilton (33:21.806)
This is so amazing. Like it wasn't, you know, it was so much deeper than some of the surface level ways that I've been introduced to in terms of the cards. And then I've had the good fortune of taking a couple of workshops with her and just been, you know, it just blows everything else out there out of the water in terms of the depth and the...

You know, talk you were talking about Pamela Coleman Smith with just all of these areas of knowledge. And we know that she was a set designer. We know that she was illustrating for other magazines. We know she was hanging out with like Ellen Terry and like super cool people in the theater scene at the time was like very interesting. And all of these people were doing these what seems like such fucking cool things. And then so like, you know, of course, all of this, the tarot exploded in this idea, these.

Hannah (33:55.504)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (34:16.322)
beautiful ideas came out. then with Jessica Dore, I feel like that's another layer of depth to tarot reading that was introduced. And so that was a lot of verbiage. Have you studied under anyone?

Hannah (34:31.443)
Yeah, well I say when I say studies no, I'm an upstart right like I've actually only I picked up my first Tarot cards like only eight years ago I have not been working with cards that long but when I did look for people I'm always looking for the people who I relate to and and Jessica door was one of those people where I was just like the connection the relationship that you have with these cards the way that you're able to speak on it so I know

Megan Hamilton (34:48.386)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (34:58.235)
I absolutely, when I credit my learning lineage, it is absolutely Jessica Dore and lovely Letitia, Letitia Cartomanci. So Letitia is also affiliated with Morbid Anatomy in New York and has written, bought out an amazing tarot book in the last couple of years. So Letitia is someone who I did a series of classes with.

Megan Hamilton (35:06.03)
I don't know.

Megan Hamilton (35:11.703)
Okay.

Hannah (35:22.385)
in the early days and has since become a good friend of mine and someone I've collaborated with in the cult and you know, that's the coolest thing and also Michelle T. Michelle T is just like the serendipity of the first time I ever saw Michelle T on the cover of her book How to Be Good at a bookshop in San Francisco to ending up with a deck in my hands and then her bringing out modern tarot the same year that I'd first picked up a tarot deck and

Megan Hamilton (35:26.478)
So good.

Megan Hamilton (35:31.306)
yeah. So good.

Megan Hamilton (35:50.254)
Hmm.

Hannah (35:51.272)
The way that Michelle T writes anyway, I find very engaging, but I found somebody writing a tarot book with the illustrated meaning based on personal experience really resonated with the way that I read cards. And quite often, if I'm in a reading with someone, I'll be like, wow, this vibe, this energy reminds me of the time I did this. And maybe I should have been doing that. And I know there's a lot of readers that'll be like, don't develop an emotional connection. Don't fuss, fuck off.

Megan Hamilton (36:02.253)
Mmm.

Hannah (36:18.59)
right? excuse my french. this idea that you've got someone logging into a zoom room or sitting at a table with a complete stranger who is about to read a sequence of magic cards for them. they are anxious. they are nervous. and the more human you can be, the more that they are able to connect and relate with you, it fosters and encourages trust. and within that trust they are able to then dig a little deeper inside of themselves. which is the reason why they sat there in the first place.

So this whole attitude that you have to be some kind of robot automaton like behind your deck where no, you are not giving anything of yourself. I don't know how you do not put anything of who you are into a card reading. Like that just does not make sense to me. Sorry.

Megan Hamilton (36:46.648)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (37:00.172)
I mean, either. mean, like, I don't you I don't know if you have people crying during your readings. I'm sure you do. But like, I'm crying, too. Of course. what the fuck? Like, we're here for something big and deep. Like, otherwise, what are we doing?

Hannah (37:08.167)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, this whole idea of, you know, this is the magic of human connection, of authentic human connection. That is the magic for me in the practice and why I'm always very keen to encourage people who have got to a certain point in their card reading to go out and offer readings to people, to their friends, to family members, to people in their community. Because for me personally, my relationship with my deck bloomed when I pulled cards for other people.

that my- the relationships that i developed with the characters within those cards just expanded in the opportunity to show up and be of service to someone else you know but i get i've i am on the receiving end of criticism for you know being someone who simply has my own agenda who needs to move my ego out of the way all of this i find hilarious of course but it does it comes from that school of

Megan Hamilton (37:45.358)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (37:54.54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hannah (38:12.787)
spirituality that sadly plays into a lot of that kind of patriarchal capitalist. this is the way like we've been saying this is the way you do it this is what you don't do this is when you are being useful and this is when you're not being useful and i have never really paid a lot of attention to that so i've always sought out people to learn from and love to continue to do that i think we're all learning and growing in our practice all the time i had a fantastic conversation in my online community with lane smith

just this last week and Lane has brought out a book called 78 Acts of Liberation Taro to Transform Our World which of course as we have done credits Jessica Dore credits Rach Pollock but it brings the conversation into in the world that we are living in now how can we take the emphasis away from the individualism within our spiritual practice and start to focus the lens a little bit more on who we are in contact with others

where we are in contact with others and as we kind of started with speaking on what is all of this learning about who I am and my values and my beliefs if it if it isn't coupled with the action you know so that's someone recently where I've been like Lane I didn't know you until you released this book but you're an experienced activist and organizer but also a tarot reader with 20 years experience so I'm always looking for people who

feel that connection with or that camaraderie and the in I guess in the nature of the kind of card work that we like to do Which doesn't mean I'm not open and receptive to people who do it differently either, you know I don't think it's about forming tight teams It is that fundamental kind of respect that I have for everyone out there do it exactly everyone out there who's doing this work But for me, yeah, my technically have I studied under anyone know

Megan Hamilton (39:43.448)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (39:47.969)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Megan Hamilton (39:55.692)
It's the opposite of that.

Hannah (40:05.091)
But I also am just a nerd at heart. I devour books. I am very, I think the reason obviously I moved towards doing this full time is because I wanted to have the full time capacity to spend entire days up close and personal with one card. And there have been moments where I've been kind of teaching card deep dives and all of a sudden the connections have actually...

Megan Hamilton (40:09.966)
dude.

Hannah (40:31.611)
come together in the way that they've been alluding me and I've had to stop in the middle of a zoom and start shuffling through the deck again and my god look at this like it's all very kind of I always say it's all very Dan Brown very Da Vinci Code right out here reading Tarot and and I and that's what I love about it I've been to Rome I went to the Vatican on like a mission to research the crossed keys in the Hierophant and the develop of the Hierophant like we were saying away from dogmatic religion to more kind of

Megan Hamilton (40:52.619)
my God.

Megan Hamilton (40:56.526)
Hmm.

Hannah (41:01.774)
those societal structures and hierarchies that now more dictate our moral codes and behaviors and sat in the garden of the Vatican like tripping out on this symbolism and this imagery and the origin of it you know so yeah I'm just a complete nerd and so if I'm not learning under someone or with someone you can guarantee I'm looking to further expand my awareness on my own terms

Megan Hamilton (41:25.812)
I, yeah, I, I have often said if people could see me in the mornings before I get started on work, as I'm fucking traipsing around the backyard looking for clues and symbols, like seeing something happen over there going, yeah, gotcha. Or like having these like insane conversations with the cards myself, where I go, if they could, you know, if they could see you, they would go, okay, wow. That's a.

Hannah (41:39.586)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (41:54.914)
That's one way of living your life.

Hannah (41:57.518)
I love that, it's that classic like spiritual awakening or should I be sectioned?

Megan Hamilton (42:01.614)
I know I've actually I actually very specifically tell my therapist everything because I'm like I just need someone to know all of the things that I get up to and she's like it's cool. Yeah, I'm like you'll tell me if you're getting any red flags about my my like mental health right and she goes yeah don't worry you're good. I wanted to talk about you know

Hannah (42:13.338)
Yeah, that's cool.

Hannah (42:24.614)
I love it.

Megan Hamilton (42:29.262)
how you discovered tarot and what led you up to because you do teach it and you know, you've got this group, the cult and you guide people through tarot. And so how did it come up for you? Like where did you discover it and how did you start practicing it? And what led you to, you know, the cult? And just to be clear everybody, is not...

Hannah (42:54.347)
This is one of those...

Megan Hamilton (42:57.688)
This is a tongue-in-cheek cult. I'm assuming not an actual cult. Although if there were a cult to join...

Hannah (43:02.384)
no well yeah well that's the thing right we've talked about dogmatic religion what is catholicism if not a cult they have a leader he lives in a paid for palace i'm all about that i want the robes i want the billowing smoke yeah it's the good it's the good well then i'm the good i get to be a good progressive cult leader as well right but at least i'm gonna call my cult cult

Megan Hamilton (43:14.806)
No, but Hannah, he's the good, he's the good Pope.

He's the progressive one.

Hannah (43:28.952)
was all it is very tongue-in-cheek. it was a it was a comment that was made from a friend because i was talking about how i'm now the person who could make sure everyone on the dance floor has got enough water rather than the person rolling around out of you know and he was like you've kind of become like cult mother and i was like cult mother cult mother cult mother and it just stayed with me and i i've also always been fascinated with cults and and within that i include things like well the kardashians right

Megan Hamilton (43:45.902)
Mm-mm.

Hannah (43:58.761)
That's a cult, right? The idea of any, anything or anyone being positioned in a way where people naturally gravitate towards you because they feel seen, they feel included, they feel, and absolutely cannot be abused. Couldn't be manipulated. Are there issues with me having a cult? Probably, but I like, it's a good cult. It's a good cult and nobody, and any, everyone is allowed to leave at any time. That's crucial. But anyway, back to how, cause the story of how Taro found me.

Megan Hamilton (43:59.394)
Yes. huh.

Megan Hamilton (44:26.357)
Okay.

Hannah (44:26.654)
You would think I made this up, but I didn't. You couldn't make it up. But it is one of those stories if you'd sat and been completely honest with your therapist, they'd be like, whoop, red flag. So basically at the end of 2016, I had completely driven my life into a wall. I was very depressed and drunken on drugs most of the time. Because I was in a lot of pain and I didn't have any tools for how to handle that. I had

Megan Hamilton (44:29.5)
fuck, I love it, I can't wait.

Hannah (44:54.748)
just found out that i'd lost another friend to that disease you know that people this live fast die young mantra was starting to lose its shine at that point where i was losing my friends and i was in an absolute state but i went out one morning to walk my little dog at the time down by the side of the canal where i lived in berlin and somebody tied an old christmas tree to the railings because everybody in berlin makes art out of everything all the time

and they'd attached luggage tags to the tree and a telephone. And the telephone said, call the universe on it. I shit you not. And then the luggage tags had all different things written on them. And if you turned one over, it'd be like, call your mom or go to the gym or quit your job or so. I looked at the phone and I looked at the tree and I looked at the phone and I looked at the tree and I turned over a tag and it said, get sober. And I was like, I know.

But at the exact same time, my dog was snuffling around in the dirt and found a, I can show it to you Megan, but I will describe it, found a very battered card in the dust. It's barely, it was barely recognizable as the Hierophant. I have no idea to this day. I don't know what deck, right? I don't know what day, like I don't know what deck it's from. I've tried to find out. It's some really kind of unusual, but I was like, is this one of those like,

Megan Hamilton (46:13.11)
my god, the keys.

Hannah (46:22.516)
tarot card things. Hmm. But if it is, what one is it? Like what the f*** is a hierophant? But I remember just googling tarot, the hierophant I'm reading about, you know, how we can be indoctrinated into certain beliefs and certain values but if they are no longer a fit for the authentic self then maybe we owe it to ourselves to seek something different. And I was like okay but it was kind of like an ice pack on a burn.

Megan Hamilton (46:50.018)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah (46:50.24)
you know, it just that it was just a way of me being able to gather my absolutely shattered thoughts that morning. And at the same week, I went flying out of my house full of bad ideas, right? Nothing in the back pocket but a death wish. And I was just like, God, what am gonna do? What am I gonna do? And I'm like just stomping around my immediate neighborhood and somebody had created like a paste up of the page of sorts. And I was like, is that another one of those

another one of those tarot card things? googled page of swords you know and it was like if you are able to persist in the face of adversity you will persevere you will learn and you will grow and i actually took myself back to my damn house and went to bed stayed sober another day and so that that was the point there i was like i think there might be something to this this is a little spooky i'm gonna buy a deck

I'm gonna start pulling cards and then very weirdly at the end of that year I got out of Berlin because I didn't want to stay there for the big New Year celebrations, temptation, temptation, and I was in a secondhand bookshop in Winchester in England and somebody had pulled a book out from the shelf but stuck to the front of it was the Four of Wands.

Megan Hamilton (47:54.318)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (48:07.852)
anniversaries, celebrations that ask you to acknowledge everything you've been through that's brought you to where you're at now but to also be prepared for the expansion, the growth, the joy that comes moving forward. and i was about to hit one year of sobriety so it really was when people like how did you get into this i'm like

Well, there was a magic Christmas tree, a telephone to the universe, you know? It's absolutely wild. And then just the serendipity continued. I said, Michelle T, somebody who's writing had been such a huge influence on me. Another person that I knew was sober and really open and honest about their experience for her to release a very kind of personal book about the cards and how to work with the cards and connect with the cards. was just perfect timing. The whole lot just unfolded for me.

It was like a dream.

Megan Hamilton (48:59.482)
I'm, I'm flabbergasted and so lit up like, like I, I love, okay. So another guest on the show, Amy Miranda. Do you know Amy? Miranda. Okay. So her book, what we've forgotten, will, you will love it. and she talks about, so this is basically like a how-to of connecting with,

Hannah (49:02.691)
I know, right?

Hannah (49:14.519)
No.

Hannah (49:18.594)
my god, gorgeous. I'm write it down right now.

Megan Hamilton (49:29.142)
other realms and other and magic essentially. And so she talks about breadcrumbs and she's a she she practices shamanism right. So I mean like that story is a hundred percent the universe going okay we're just gonna we're gonna make it so clear we're gonna do everything we can.

Hannah (49:30.264)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (49:48.587)
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. She needs it. She need... We're have to roll out the cannons. We need the big guns. Because wow. She needs it. Right?

Megan Hamilton (49:57.774)
and, and he paid attention and took action, right? That's the thing. The cards show up for you had this like universe reading and then took action on it. wow. I, God, I love that story.

Hannah (50:12.411)
think for me, know, in the midst of that is that when you are dysregulated, when you feel disenfranchised, when you are really having to show up for yourself, even though that's something that you've never really done before, get a tarot deck. Have a tarot deck to hand. I always say I want people with a tarot deck in their house the same way we keep a toothbrush in the bathroom, right? That we need some kind of opportunity in this mad world we live in to pause.

I say it all the time, my little moment when I do my reels, pause, connect and reflect. Just to sit and to shuffle cards is grounding. It's a grounding action. It brings us back and down into the body. As we prepare to pull cards, we start expanding our perspective away from just whatever thing it was, the problem du jour, whatever it is, right? And we start kind of...

these four suits, these four different parts of who we are, we just expand into that present moment. And I think for me that's why I was just on such a mission. Because I was such a mess. I was, I felt so ill-equipped. I didn't feel like I had any tools. And when I picked up a tarot deck, I had this tool. And it felt empowering from the very first card pulls. Those first clumsy card pulls, I'd love to go back to that.

Megan Hamilton (51:29.774)
you

Hannah (51:37.528)
I'd love that. I love when I do learn my Lentaro class and people are like, I don't even know how to shuffle these cards. I'm like, I'm so excited for you. You like the first time I pulled the queen of wands without even knowing anything about whether it's Leo and I'm a Leo and then there's this and it means that just the vibrant colour, the quiet confidence, the beautiful sunflower imagery. I was just like, from the very first time I pulled that card, she was a permission slip for me to just be

I call her our lady of authenticity, right? To just be the most me I can be. And that stayed there, you know, those initial encounters with some of these cards, these characters, these figures, you don't forget the first day that you met them, basically. You don't forget that kind of introduction and that, you know, talking about how I got into Taro and it just reminds me of the joy of not knowing.

Megan Hamilton (52:10.062)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (52:21.72)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (52:32.326)
when it comes to sitting down to read cards in those kind of in that early part of your practice and if anything sometimes i'm a little because i'm a little jealous i'm literally like because when you do start then getting into when the 22 letters of the hebra alphabet and then there was this you know and it's it i always say to people when i do deep dives or i kind of teach a lot of the kind of structure of the symbolism in cards it's it's lovely to know from that very nerdy da vinci code kind of way but does it make you a better card reader

Megan Hamilton (52:39.883)
I know, I know.

Hannah (53:02.16)
No, it doesn't. It doesn't help your interpretation necessarily to be armed with 78 very relevant pieces of information as to why this, why, why is this snail here in the night of pentacles? Well, let me tell you, right? If it doesn't, right? If it doesn't, if it doesn't land, if it doesn't resonate, if it isn't relevant to the person in their lived experience, then it's going to miss the mark.

Megan Hamilton (53:16.684)
I love that snail.

Hannah (53:27.522)
entire time. So keeping that kind of page energy, beginner's mind, I think I know but I don't know and therein lies the opportunity I think for me is the most important element or aspect of reading Tarot and doing it well.

Megan Hamilton (53:41.614)
Absolutely. And I also think that on the other side of that, once you've done the nerding out, once you've done the looking, I think of it like music where it's like, okay, well, you've got to have technique. You know, you've got and I've tried to play guitar for years as well. By the way, I'm also a musician and I now write music. But like I did not pick up. I didn't figure out finally how to play guitar till I was in my late 20s. Right. Like it just wasn't working for me. But

Hannah (53:47.816)
Mm.

Hannah (53:56.284)
Yeah. Amazing.

Megan Hamilton (54:08.726)
You have to know the technique. have to learn all the bits and pieces and then like you just you let it go and then you're going forward. So it lives there somewhere. But instead you're right. You're embracing the page energy and going for like moving forward in the direction of the unknown and the curious. And I find that I really like to keep that energy and as opposed to it being sort of a natural thing that comes when you're first starting something.

Hannah (54:24.776)
Mm.

Megan Hamilton (54:37.526)
at this point is a choice. Right? It's like hopefulness is a choice and I could live my life. I know what the fuck's happening around the world right now. So do you. It's not good.

Hannah (54:49.589)
Yep.

Yeah, heads up everyone. It's not good. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (54:54.254)
By the way, if you haven't been reading the news, things are quite bleak. However, I can sink into that very easily and be very depressed and be very concerned and worried. And I'm not saying I'm not worried, but, or I can think to myself, okay, well, what can I do? And I think this ties into your teaching and you know, like how do we move forward?

Hannah (55:07.455)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (55:23.092)
in this using this tool. How can I keep, you know, if I get to believe whatever the hell I want, I'm going to believe that this can change and that I can be a part of that. I don't know how big, but I know that if if we also come to letting these idiots. Yeah, but like I can't even call them motherfuckers. No, please. But like because I just don't think that they have.

Hannah (55:33.887)
Yeah. Yep.

Hannah (55:43.627)
other fuckers. Yep. Sorry.

Ha ha.

Megan Hamilton (55:51.948)
The power that we give them.

Hannah (55:53.959)
No, they don't they 100 % don't no no

Megan Hamilton (55:56.054)
When I woke up to that news, I woke up, I thought I would be upset. Like I hadn't been paying attention. I was like, I just, there's nothing I can do that's going to change anything aside from a few little hexes here and there. But I need to know that I can have a good night's sleep this morning or that night and wake up and just take, take whatever's going to come. And I live in Canada. you know, and you know, cause you don't live in America either, but like this stuff affects us. It affects our culture. It affects who feels suddenly emboldened.

Hannah (56:10.859)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah (56:22.131)
Of course. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (56:26.414)
People are already suffering as a result of what has happened. But if I think it's hopeless and that these guys now can actually do control my body. That's it. We're done. But if I can choose whatever I want to in terms of all right, there's got to be a way to get past this. Also, guess what? Whisper networks and like like herbal abortions, like all of this stuff has been going on for centuries.

Hannah (56:37.367)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah (56:54.987)
Yep. This is, that's really important. I actually, one of my favorite mentors and one of the women that I will always love most in my life, was the sex worker. Pro-hoes. Look, look at what the sex workers are doing because they will lead the way. They will carry the light, right? They are the hermit in the dark, in the dark times. And it's always all of this anxiety that I have about obviously running your own business. It is kind of stressful being online all the time. It is kind of, what if they do this? What if they do that? And she was always just like,

Megan Hamilton (57:21.07)
Dude, it's so stressful.

Hannah (57:24.397)
well then you'll do what you'll do it differently. You'll you'll you'll stick your business card in a phone box honey you know like you know if they pull down your Instagram tomorrow girl like then when you're gonna do this and you're gonna do that and people will or the people that need you people that want you there will always find you and and that energy that advice that wisdom from someone who is used to being left on the outside and shut out of

most of the kind of mainstream kind of conversations or solutions was so immeasurably helpful for me. i think a lot of the creativity that i have in my business, a lot of my lack of willingness to toe the line in terms of what is or is not appropriate, especially in spiritual spaces. spiritual. love and light. high vibes. fuck off. right.

Like it has come from this learning of like people when they need to survive they would they will find ways there is a real creativity in that and I think we're seeing that already In in the wake of the absolute horror show that has been 2024 It's dark and as difficult as it's been I see these these massive glimmers these huge moments of but look at the conversations we're having This is not a conversation. We would have been having right five years ago

It's- and it's long overdue. It is a reckoning. This is where people are gonna have no choice but to start to get to know their neighbors, to- to pay more attention to their immediate environment, you know? Everyone throws the word like, community! Community is a big word right now, but it's because we are recognizing the fact that whose streets are streets. We- we have the power. I've always been baffled as to why it is that people have the power.

Megan Hamilton (58:42.52)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah (59:09.956)
but that we're so compliant and complicit through fear. And I think we're really starting to turn the tide now and people are starting to feel more emboldened and more stronger and more willing to hold people accountable and to take people to task. And personally, I love to see it. think that let's call it, let's call the elephant in the room by his name. I think Trump is up for a bumpy ride. I don't think he wanted.

Megan Hamilton (59:24.236)
to.

Hannah (59:37.59)
all of that for another- if he wants that job, he can have it. Come on. I mean, nobody wants to be president of the United States of America because you're never gonna be one of the good guys when that's the seat that you sit in, you know? He's the best person suited for all of that theatrical nonsense right now. Meanwhile, the real work is always happening off stage, behind the scenes, grassroots, in our own towns, cities, immediate kind of connections and friendship circles. And I think

I'm the same this year has been the year where I've been like why don't I just dig a hole and roll in and call it a day like truly it's been so so challenging but it's because I can't Sink back into my privilege and luxuriate in the way that I have done my entire life. I can't do it anymore because it's too painful It's too uncomfortable because I'm now too aware of the fact that every benefit that I have been afforded has come at the expense of the cost of someone else

Megan Hamilton (01:00:11.746)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Hannah (01:00:31.49)
and I will now do what I can to try to reconcile the balance sheet before I shuffle off this mortal coil and I now know as well I am not the only one. And the connection, the actual camaraderie, the community that I've been able to find and to develop the more that I've been waking to certain things or been able to speak on certain things really emboldens me as you were saying with the idea that it has to be a choice for us every day because there are people who aren't afforded

Megan Hamilton (01:00:40.309)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Hannah (01:01:00.336)
the choice of will I remain positive or have I got any gas left in the tank? No, they don't. And so if we do, have to, now is the time to show up, essentially.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:02.85)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:11.36)
Yes. Yep. Yep. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I know. I know it's it. Well, you know, like, as I always say, well, I mean, like, this is the strength here. So I don't know what we were expecting, but we got it. I would want to talk to you for hours more, but I don't want to take.

Hannah (01:01:14.246)
Mmm.

But is it it daunting and am I tired? Yes.

Hannah (01:01:30.588)
Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah (01:01:38.588)
course.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:40.024)
take up all your time. And I am also aware that, you know, people have short attention spans and perhaps this podcast will be getting getting lengthy. But maybe maybe if your game will meet again and talk even more. But can you tell us? OK, good. I how do people join the cult?

Hannah (01:01:52.828)
Of course, yeah, of course, anytime, yes.

Hannah (01:02:01.187)
How does one join a cult?

Megan Hamilton (01:02:03.49)
How do people join your cult, Hannah? And by the way, you can leave as has been mentioned and start to develop. It's in the fucking finger jar over there. Leave if you want, but just take a look over there before you go.

Hannah (01:02:09.436)
can leave any time, cost you a finger and a toe. I joke, I joke. Yeah. Don't make me show you my jar of fingers. It's like the hotel California, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Megan Hamilton (01:02:23.63)
You can never leave. So how do people join and how would they then start to develop their own relationship with Tarot?

Hannah (01:02:37.854)
Mmm. my god. Okay. So basically as cult mother when I started my patreon, it's a patreon So my online membership based community, it's on on patreon I called it the cult and I'm it's been going for nearly half a decade now So there are quite a lot of us and the cool thing about the cult is it isn't just me

Megan Hamilton (01:02:44.11)
Okay, huh, yep.

Hannah (01:02:56.562)
so what I do is I bring in other practitioners either on a regular basis So we have al bal johnston doing kind of body work and breath work at the moment encouraging people into kind of active rest Because that's something i've needed. So if I need it, you might need it, too We've we've brought that into the cult So yeah, I invite I do a deep dive on an individual card every month, but I also invite guest practitioners to speak on a whole

wide range of topics other than tarot and i think that kind of sits comfortably in the wu sphere for want of a better word you know we've we've done herbalism we've done kind of moon work there's a lot of astrology workshops and things in there there's a doom yoga class an emo yoga class kind of so yeah that that really is what the core of the cult and obviously the community because we hang out we've got a discord there's that kind of connection and everybody being wayward weird and witchy

in the cult community as well so if you want to join the cult link in my bio no if you want to join the cult it's it's just my cult cult mother it's my patreon so and and as much as there's quite a lot of in-depth tarot learning in there like i really like i said i really go to town on a card deep dive i do kind of like astrology mythology history symbolism interpretation i always recommend that people have kind of

Developed a pretty good relationship with their deck and are feeling pretty confident with the cards before they tackle a cult mother deep dive because it is deliberate kind of rabbit hole Yeah, big time big time big time so I I teach classes But my classes are very much As you will have you know as we've been able to discuss today of kind of like you you have to be who you are Take this and make it your own

Megan Hamilton (01:04:22.734)
Hmm, it's the nerd, it's the nerding out.

love it.

Hannah (01:04:40.765)
If you're setting out to try and read tarot like me or anyone else, you're setting yourself up to fail. And I always say to people, if you bring the truth of who you are and you speak from a place of kind of integrity and experience, I don't think you can give a bad tarot reading. I just don't think it's possible. I think that's such as the nature of the tool.

Megan Hamilton (01:05:00.59)
I agree with you completely. I think, you know, I think there's like, have to develop a bit of confidence around that. That just has to sort of come. But the only way it's going to come is by doing it the first time and practicing and just doing it. We didn't even talk about, can we talk about your name? Can we talk about fucking joy and graves? Is that not the most? Exactly like that is the core of tarot. It's the black and the white. It's the.

Hannah (01:05:08.591)
Mmm. It's practice. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

Hannah (01:05:17.164)
Yeah.

Hannah (01:05:21.636)
Ha!

the best juxtaposition ever. Yeah, I mean, it's very, very cool as well to obviously grow up and be a bit of a kind of punk rock kind of goth horror core kid and walk around with the name Graves. Because everyone's like, is that your real name? Like, no, it truly is. And wait till you hear my middle name. And I'm

My parents say that it's because I bought Joy to their lives. They called me Hannah Joy and I was like momentarily perhaps but I feel like it should be kind of like Hannah Joy chaos graves. We might need to add something a little extra in there now but yeah I'm pretty happy with Hannah Joy graves except that obviously I'm really into the misfits. I have a massive Danzig tattoo across my entire stomach.

And so I'm much more of a Danzig era misfits person than a Graves era misfits Michael Graves, of course, and everybody always thinks it's some weird Name I've chosen as a homage to like Graves era misfits and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no

Megan Hamilton (01:06:20.566)
Right, right. I think you should do that as the subtext under the misfits.

Hannah (01:06:26.248)
yes. yeah it's like that all about dandzig you can't you trust me if you i my stomach looks like the front of a truck in texas because i've got the full dandzig skull with the horns across the whole of my lower abdomen i lived it i've lived i've lived a lot of different lives yes that's absolutely wow it gets that's just the patreon it we always say it's not a cult catch up until someone's cried as usually me

Megan Hamilton (01:06:30.754)
Danzig.

Megan Hamilton (01:06:39.97)
I love it. That's the only fan section of the Patreon.

Megan Hamilton (01:06:49.018)
yeah, you get access to that,

Hannah (01:06:54.261)
we're very open and honest and weird so...

Megan Hamilton (01:06:54.638)
I love it. love it. So and don't worry everybody. I will be making sure to link to everything. Cult Mother and Hannah related at the bottom. I also really recommend if you want a good starting place to start with Instagram because you do these beautiful tarot readings and you start to get a sense of what it's like if you would be working with Hannah and learning from.

Hannah (01:07:14.584)
Thank you. Thank you.

Megan Hamilton (01:07:22.926)
from the cult mother. So you can, this is where I read the part, you can find out all about Hannah as well as takeaways from today's episode in the show notes or at embracing enchantment.com. Please subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts, leave a review, leave a voice note. I love getting a voice note. You can go to the website and there's like a little.

blurb that says leave a voice note here. We have some incredible guests coming up as well as a bunch of previous episodes that explore shamanism, tarot, whether or not magic is real, pagan holidays, and so much more. Until then, here's to building an enchanted life. Thank you, Hannah.

Hannah (01:08:06.107)
Thank you.